Theory with the Apex (Mark look here)

[Stan]

Okay Mark Im going be asking for your advice here with what can be machined and cut.

Okay, the theory is this:

A ball coming through a smooth bore barrel (like the one that comes stock on an apex) into an apex has some potential for coefficient spin to tilt the backspin feature of the apex from one side to the other causing the ball to spin to one side (largely depending on paint to barrel match).

So with that in mind a rap4 rifled barrel has straight rifling to ensure little to no coefficient spin when the ball leaves the barrel, with that in mind if an apex were to somehow find its way onto a rap4 rifled shouldnt the spin free trajectory of the ball into the apex then ensure a better cleaner backspin when leaving the apex?

If my theories are correct Mark can you mount an Apex on this (perhaps hack the muzzle off or something?): http://www.rap4.com/images/68barrel/quiet_non.jpg

http://rap4.com/paintball/os/barrel-sys ... 0_238.html (http://rap4.com/paintball/os/barrel-systems-68cal-rifled-barrel-c-22_220_238.html)

IF so I see no other choice than to take keasters Sl and rifle barrel its Apex :D

[keaster]

dont worry all, i wasent forced into this :wink:

[fong]

the muzzles increase in OD in the barrel near the tip might actually be bennificial to mounting the apex.

its easier to remove material then it is to add :)

as for will the "rifled" barrel be better then the stock, only one real way to find out.

[Mark]

I think once the ball hits the tongue in the Apex it straightens out any 'X rotation.
Other than looking great, it may help breaks in the tip area.

Ramp off, nice straight barrel, ramp on, Apex effect.
The best of both worlds

To quote Fong "only one real way to find out" :wink:

[Rico]

How long is the rilfed tip? The apex will fit anything 1" in diameter, and 7/8 long perfectly. To get it to fit on most things you can ground off the rear jog that keeps it from comming off the end of the barrel. Then you just screw it on tight enough that you can twist it. So far the force from the balls hasn't blown the Apex off my bigshot....yet. Granted I haven't gone full auto.

My suggestion. Hack the tip of the muzzle off to make it 7/8, sand/grind out any burrs on the inside. Then use electrical tape or hockey tape around the outside of the tip to make the entire 7/8's of the muzzle 1" in diameter. If you wanna get real pimp. Grab some ceramic/metal repair putty from a local construction supply store and mold it around the tip. Let it dry, sand it to the above size. Either way should work fine as long as you center it within the apex properly.

If the whole thing is less than an 1" in diameter grab the putty and a piece of 1"OD ACS tubing with the proper ID for the muzzle and snug it on. Being able to throw an apex on a good existing barrel is pretty killer. I'm dying to try mine out when mersey opens again.

[Arden]

undergroundmods.com sells an apex adapter for "other" barrels. I'm ordering one, They also sell a longer barrel for the Tac 8, the apex will fit on it too with the adapter. A Tac 8 with an Apex sounds cool to me!

[Rico]

undergroundmods.com sells an apex adapter for "other" barrels. I'm ordering one, They also sell a longer barrel for the Tac 8, the apex will fit on it too with the adapter. A Tac 8 with an Apex sounds cool to me!

I read about that thing into great detail. I would check it out first. It's just a piece of pipe like I mentioned above, cut into two with a couple orings. It doesn't prevent the apex from comming off the end of the barrel. So it has no advantage over making an adaptor yourself. For $20 it seems easier and more fun to do it yourself.

[fong]

i bought one before they had any information, expecting a metal adaptor. I had no real use for it and keaster ended up picking it up.

the only real bennifet to the delrin sleeves is it saves the finnish of your barrel.

[keaster]

yeah, we have the delrin sleev for it if we end up doing it... i dont wanna shave anything... thats how i origonally have the apex on my SL-68II , were just wondering if the muzzle is too wide in diameter to fit the apex with the adapter right now..

[Stan]

I think once the ball hits the tongue in the Apex it straightens out any 'X rotation.
:wink:

Even if the outer shells spin was correct isn’t there the possibility of the liquid inside to keep spinning in the incorrect direction? But like fong said we have to try it out to see if the rifling will help.

I will try and get my hands on a 9 inch rifled barrel ( to try to replicate the apex’s stock length) so me and Keast can do some experimentation

[Rico]

I think once the ball hits the tongue in the Apex it straightens out any 'X rotation.
:wink:

Even if the outer shells spin was correct isn’t there the possibility of the liquid inside to keep spinning in the incorrect direction? But like fong said we have to try it out to see if the rifling will help.

I will try and get my hands on a 9 inch rifled barrel ( to try to replicate the apex’s stock length) so me and Keast can do some experimentation

Sounds cool. Keep us posted.

I think they need to make an apex attachment for every barrel. Almost like putting on a silencer or muzzle break. They should have made it so that people could just carry it around and snug it on any barrel when needed. I know it's unlikely, but I can dream. ;)

[keaster]

thats what i do, if a break happens in the barrel that dirtys the apex i just take it off and put it in my pocket to be cleaned when the game allows it, then i slip in on with ease!!!

[Dan]

Looks like a good theory, but theres a few things I'd like to point out.

Your propulsion pressure is going to have to increase. Due to the increase in porting (from the stock ring on the Apex), and the friction given by the Apex system, more air is going to be required to attain the same distances. Higher pressures tend to lead to more irratic paths for the ball to go through in the barrel.

An outside factor such as suction/backpressure might ensue. In perfect conditions (aka playing around at the Crono station) this won't happen, but during a game where dirt is bound to be within your barrel I see a problem. The extra porting just sounds like to me as a major problem as to the durabilty and consistency of the Apex. Dirt, or any particles of you name it, get sucked into the barrel through the porting, onto the Apex mechanism, causing wear and tear onto it, until gradually it looses its effectiveness.

However, out of all of this, its always best to test your theories. Might even stumble upon the next greatest thing since Dow 33.

[keaster]

holy s*** its dan... i thought you were dead...

[Mark]

Dan! great to see you on.

My take is if you can get the ball up to 280 FPS or so before it hits the Apex tip it will go straight. Even if it was fired out of a hose.
In fact I drilled a bunch of holes in a J&J barrel, shortened it to 5 inches
and added the Apex tip. It worked extremely well. When the tip was removed the barrel itself broke paint like crazy.

Stans point I think is that due to liquid fill uneveness the Apex can't be
consistant. A rifled barrel would spin the ball clockwise hopefully causing the fill to even out inside the shell. When it hits the tongue and is back spun the ball will be stable as it is in balance so to speak.

Give me that barrel Stan! :wink:

[keaster]

straight rifling actually, lol

[fong]

aye, im putting the apex on the hammerhead hwen it arrives for shits and giggles however

[Chris_L]

edit: ignore this post, i was using completly wrong assumptions for almost everything i said.

i think too much cosideration is being given to things that are more than likely neglidgable, physical systems like this are pretty irratic and its normally a lot of small things adding up to give large changes.

I dont even know if the rifiling in barrels truely works for paintballs as it does bullets. Would need a high speed camera to truely test it out.

Im just gonna throw this out there.

The ramp on an apex is what.. 2" long? the ball is in contact with the ramp for about 0.0005 seconds if moving 300fps. I think the ball would have to be spinning 1800rps or 108000 rpm to even turn 1 rotation while in contact with the ramp. ( you can also consider you guys like to shoot your raps at 450fps)

but in theory you are right (if im understanding you). the paintball could act like a bowling ball with spin. As it moves down the ramp the spin could cause it to drift to one side, and even a small change in vector on the ramp could make for a large difference 100ft down range.

My hypothesis:

As far as i know the ramp is contoured to the size of a .68cal paintball, this distributes the contact pressure, i think the smaller rap balls will concentrate the pressure and just end up popping the ball.

Still do er up and lets see what happens.


edit i just saw keaster say its straight riffling, im assuming that means it attempts to remove all spin from the ball. if thats the case .. what the problem is?

[keaster]

sl68 aint no rap, lol, and the apex has been proven effective by... me... to me... i have effectively used all the settings on the apex and believe that if there was no sideways spin or very little then accuracy could be improved by quite a bit... can you teach me big words chris? and the rap barrels are for .68 cal paint, lol.

[Chris_L]

he said a rap4 barrel, i thought a rap4 was the .40cal


I think its gonna turn out to be neglidable difference.

In paintball-accuracy your 3 biggest enemies are always going to be:
1- Turbulent air taht drives teh ball (god knows what side of the ball the air wants to push on from shot to shot)
2- Wind, a little wind goes a long way for your shot
3- Seams on the ball, those seams act like laces on a baseball. (this would actually be magnified by the apex since it puts mega spin on the ball)

dont get me wrong i think your idea is in the right direction i just dont think its going to dominate the other factors. We can debate this till we are bleeding from the ears and still not know, do it up and lets find out. Ill be more than happy if im mistaken.

[Stan]

as for will the "rifled" barrel be better then the stock, only one real way to find out.

I will post my results here and test with a Hammarhead, straight rifled, flaltine, apex, rifled apex, smoothbore, and more.

[Mark]

as for will the "rifled" barrel be better then the stock, only one real way to find out.

I will post my results here and test with a Hammarhead, straight rifled, flaltine, apex, rifled apex, smoothbore, and more.

Can I offer a unique test barrel Stan?
It's a quick and dirty backspin idea I have
based on a stock A-5 barrel

[Stan]

I would be honoured to have you participate in our experiment.

[Rico]

I just realized if this works you guy will have the real thing.

Rap4 + Apex = Rapex!

Mine was a stretch. ;)

[keaster]

and you know what rapex spells backwords dont you... xepar... soundes exotic 8) hopefully this does work, would be pretty "pimpin"!